sgdk for rpg/sim-development?

[Tanja]

since i'm quite used to sgdk2 now, and have a little spare time, i think about making rpgs or life sim games.
i now sgdk2 is mainly for sidescrollers, but, really, what is additionally needed to make rpgs? maybe sort of database for storing a lot of variables (messages, story parts, multiple choice messages)? a system to code cutscenes (character A walks to point xy, speaks message nr. 104, the screen blackens and the player wakes up in his bed)?
i am mainly interested in making sort of a harvest moon clone with everything i ever wanted to can do as i played it... a decade ago.    this is no rpg, but sort of.

is there some interest on your side, blue monk?
what about the others here?

[bluemonkmn]

I have always thought that SGDK/SGDK2 could and should be used to create an RPG.  I think cbass2 was making an RPG with version 1, but I haven't heard much from cbass2 in quite a while.  I suspect that there are many features that could make designing an RPG game in SGDK2 easier.  I wonder if they could all be implemented using custom templates, or if some additional engine support would be necessary.  I think a lot could be accomplished with custom code objects and without changing the IDE.

[Tanja]

say, have you ever heard about AGS? http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/
two years ago i tried it out and i think it is mighty. there was a very cool way one could create cutscenes, very easy, by simply recording actions or so. and it has a simple database for messages. mulitple choice messages are no problem, i think. but i got not very deep in scripting and so... uh, yeah, there was the hotspot-function. cool thing.

edit:
LOL, i viewed the release changes list: "Added Game.DoOnceOnly"
this is what every script newbie needs!  :laugh:

[v6v]

You know, I've tried AGS 2 yrs ago too... not really my bag of favorites... If you're into Lucas arts games and whatnot, you'd probably TRY it. (emphasis on try)Too much work on the PCX and TGA files, that is, If you want to listen to me and join the cooler side of the pillow....

Hey... does anyone know how to make a RPG styled battle with SGDK2?

[bluemonkmn]

There was a very cool way one could create cutscenes, very easy, by simply recording actions or so. and it has a simple database for messages.

SGDK version 1.x had the recording and playback wizard, which recorded actions into a VBS script and could be played back by any trigger as long as the conditions were the same.  A similar thing could be implemented pretty easily as a custom code object in SGDK2, I bet.  But this usually only works when you're using frame-based movement (like SGDK2 currently does), not time-based movement.  So if anyone still wants time-based movement, that feature would conflict with the ability to record/playback cut scenes.

[durnurd]

The easiest I've seen of cutscene design was in RPG Maker 2000.  It was similar to the way SGDK2 currently implements things.  You'd basically have a plan as the controller which could send the information for what to do to all the other sprites.  The only thing is, the list of items are not all done in one frame.  The one event list contained the entire scene. All of the panning of the camera, all the character movements, talking, and more movements.  It was more geared specifically towards that. It had things like "Walk up 1 cell.  Wait 1 unit.  Turn 90 degres."  1 unit is basically the time it takes to walk 1 cell, as defined by the "speed" of the object (1-8) and also the framerate (also 1-8... but backwards).

[Tanja]

But this usually only works when you're using frame-based movement (like SGDK2 currently does), not time-based movement.  So if anyone still wants time-based movement, that feature would conflict with the ability to record/playback cut scenes.

i thought frame-based and time-based thingis could live side-by-side happily. for the one purporse someone could take frame-based methods, for another purporse time-based methods.
why wouldn't a record and playback ability work time-based? instead of frames or units there are minutes and seconds used. when the maker can edit the single values afterwards, it would be perfect.

[bluemonkmn]

The problem with time-based operations is that it runs differently on different machines.  Assume I record a script where the sprite moves down 4 pixels in 0.1 seconds and then I press right to go into a narrow passageway.  Now if I take the same script to another computer, maybe it's a slower computer, so the sprite moved down 6 pixels in 0.15 seconds instead of moving down 4 pixels in 0.1 seconds.  Now I can't press right at the correct time to get into the passageway.  The rest of the recording will play completely differently due to one slight mis-calculation.

(Of course this applies to the same machine too.  Sometimes the same machine will multi-task differently on the same program, causing the game to run differently from time to time.)

[Tanja]

hm, welll...
what you describe, is almost the same problem with frame-based methods, isn't it? on a very fast machine the cutscenes could play way too fast, on older computers too slow.
this is bad, because i thought using something time-based would solve that problem.

[Jam0864]

well if you cap the fps at around 50-60, then even slow computers will stay relatively up to speed. (depending on how complex the game is, i spose)

If it lags, it's less annoying than having to be disadvantaged by frame skipping, which can stop you doing things properly in the game, as bluemonkmn mentioned.

also, if it lags, they know their computer is too slow, otherwise, with the frame skipping stuff (i assume thats what time based does) then they think they're running it well, but then get frustrated when it stuffs up (in bluemonkmns example) or they think your game is just really choppy, not their machines fault...

[Tanja]

huh. now we are the topic "how do i limit my frame rate?". durnurd scripted something here, but at my side of the screen was an error. i haven't investigated at it yet ...
but i agree with you, jam. good point.

[bluemonkmn]

what you describe, is almost the same problem with frame-based methods, isn't it? on a very fast machine the cutscenes could play way too fast, on older computers too slow.

But I'm just talking about recording and playback.  On a frame-based system, playing back a recording will have no problem.  1000 frames is always 1000 frames and all the calculations will come out exactly the same... some computers will yield all the calculations faster and others slower, but at least they are the same calculations because all the variables are the same.  But on a time-based system, the number of frames per time unit is variable (not all the variables are the same each time) which throws all the calculations off, so you can't even get the same calculations, and the playback wanders off into oblivion as a result of even one miscalculation, and you would hit many miscalculations in a time-based system.

Sure a fast system and a slow system may play back a recorded sequence at a different speed, and that's a little different for the user, but the user would not be much as disturbed by a cut scene that runs a little fast as they would be a scene where the king accidentally jumps off a cliff instead of jumping over a gap to bring you your reward ... actually that'd be kind of funny .

[Tanja]

yeah okay, i got that. so, frame-based methods and maybe a frame rate limiter would be the best way, i think.
i wonder if some rpg maker would take the time and write such a code object, if he would be convinced that sgdk2 is so good, his work would pay. would it be difficult/a lot of work for a ... say... medium good programmer ... to make a cutscene editor?

[durnurd]

I think that some playback systems begin to actually skip frames when playback slows down.  The calculations are still performed, but the display, which takes a lot of time in itself, is skipped to keep up.  This way, a constant FPS can be achieved, but a few frames will be skipped here and there, so it may look a little jumpy and jerky.  If it gets too slow, however, it will eventually start to slow down, otherwise you would see fewer frames than you miss.

[bluemonkmn]

i wonder if some rpg maker would take the time and write such a code object

If you're just talking about a recording and playback object, that would be relatively easy to create.  I'd enjoy doing it myself, but I have too many other things to do first.  (I've done it two or three times before.)  Maybe Durnurd would be inclined to write the recording and playback objects for SGDK2 like he did for SGDK2?   I can give tips to anyone who would be interested in trying to implement recording and playback objects, if that's what you're looking for.